[Audio + Transcript] Opendoor CEO Carrie Wheeler at Goldman Sachs Communacopia + Technology Conference 2024

Transcript

Michael Ng

Welcome to the Opendoor presentation at the Goldman Sachs Communacopia and Technology Conference. I have the privilege of introducing Carrie Wheeler, who is the CEO of Opendoor. She served as CFO of Opendoor for 2 years before being appointed as CEO in December of 2022. Prior to joining Open, Carrie was a partner and Head of Retail and Consumer investing at TPG Capital.

My name is Mike Ng. I cover Opendoor and real estate tech here at the firm. We have about 35 minutes for today's presentation, inclusive of investor Q&A. So first, thank you so much for being here, Carrie. It's really a privilege to have you on stage.

Carrie Wheeler

Thanks for having me, yes.

Michael Ng

Yes. Pleasure's mine. So Opendoor, very interesting story, the most successful iBuyer, who's managed to scale its business from selling 3,000 homes a year in 2017 to a peak of 39,000 a year in 2022.

Michael Ng

Could you talk about your long-term vision for Opendoor, particularly in the context of what's happening in the broader U.S. housing environment today?

Carrie Wheeler

Sure. Happy to. Maybe just sort of level set on like where we are today and the problem we're trying to solve, which is if anyone's ever tried to sell their home, like 99% of people do today, you find an agent you do a bunch of repairs on spec to get your home almost ready, you put it on the market, you hold a bunch of open houses, people trade through, you get rid of the kids and the dog. You hope you go into contract with somebody, you negotiate with them, 1 in 4 of those contracts fall through. You restart that process all over again, and hopefully, you end up selling your home. We're looking to change that.

We are trying to bring simplicity and certainty and ease to the real estate market and give people something that is simple serve fast. And so they can move with confidence on to whatever their next step is, which is usually another home and allow you to be an efficient buyer because you know exactly what you have in hand in terms of home equity. So that's where we are today, but we are less than 1% of the market, still 99% of this market is online analog, it's uncertain and it needs to be fixed. And so that's really the business we're in today.

You asked, I think, where we're going and also where we sit in all this. It's really just there. Today, we are in 50 markets and offering our solution to customers, and we really want people to think of us first when they're starting their home selling journey. They may decide they want to list the traditional way, which is fine, but come to us, get an offer to know exactly what your home is worth and then evaluate from there.

Michael Ng

Okay. Great. So a lot of people have traditionally thought of Opendoor as an iBuyer. And I think Open has done a very good job of pursuing a bunch of initiatives to really expand their offering beyond just the core cash offer. Could you elaborate on what the customer journey looks like on Opendoor today? How has it changed relative to the early days of the business. List with Opendoor, I think, has expanded to nearly all markets. So what's the right balance between traditional buying versus list with Opendoor or even something else when you think about products to help customers along their homebuying journey?

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. I mean, you're right. We were having this conversation 2 years ago. What we really had to offer you as a cash solution, right, a cash offer. And that's right for a lot of our customers. It's not right for all of our customers. There's a segment of people who want to understand what is my home worth if I put it on the market. They may have a little FOMO, what if I -- what am I leaving on the table by not going through traditional listing process. And we can allow them to engage in some structured price discovery by listing on the market, but still retain the assurance of the cash offer.

So today, you'll come to us and you'll see 2 offerings. One is sell direct and the other one is listed with Opendoor. And if you choose the List with Opendoor option, we will partner you with an agent that we have prequalified and trained. They will list that home in the market. And then if you decide at some point during that 30-day listing journey that you're not meeting expectations or time is not your friend, you can fall back to an Opendoor Offer.

And what we found is that by giving people a choice, we're building trust. And for when we have listed Opendoor alongside the cash offer, our Net Promoter Score is almost 10 points higher. And so early days, we got to all markets, as you said, most of all of our markets by the end of June. So we think that this will be an incremental product for us, accretive to conversion long term, and it's certainly, I think, brand building. It's a better experience for the customer when they can kind of evaluate those 2 things.

Michael Ng

Yes. And maybe just as a follow-up to that, Opendoor has several partnerships with organizations like eXp and Zillow and Redfin. Could you talk a little bit about the nature of those partnerships? Are they more about driving brand awareness and a top of funnel, hey, somebody is looking for a cash offer on Zillow so that it can go to Opendoor. Or is it more that real estate brokerage partnership model that you kind of talked about at the onset?

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. I mean, it's all the above. We like all our partnership channels. In total, across agents, online real estate and homebuilders, it's north of 40% of our volume that we did today and growing. And the reason we like them is number one, that's where sellers are. So we want to be anywhere sellers are. If you're thinking about buying a new home, but you have to sell your old home, we want to be there in that home builder community on a weekend, providing a solution to customers. We want to be in an agent's pocket when they're thinking about showing their customer their alternative, I can list or I can sell direct and be done with it, and that might be the right solution.

We want to be there, and we certainly want to be on Zillow. When you're scrolling real estate late night, you're thinking about alternatives. We want to show it for you as de facto cash offer solution on the Internet. So we love all those partnership channels. And we believe that our partners also recognize that consumers want the solution, and that's why they have partnered with us. And the reason to like those channels are not just for the coverage and the expansive footprint and the awareness it drives, but also for us, they're very efficient marketing channels.

And so we've really leaned into those in the last couple of years, and we'll continue to expand and grow them. All of them are important.

Michael Ng

That's great. Could you talk a little bit about Zillow -- sorry, Opendoor's acquisition strategy. Opendoor is ramping up its business through more acquisitions after a softer period of acquisitions in 2023, what is your buy box? And what does your model look like right now? And how has it evolved over time?

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. So I think at a high level, like how are we going to grow more and more acquisitions over time? How do we increase our top of funnel for Opendoor, there's probably 3 big levers. Number one is like people just need to know about us. We're still relatively new well, we're not new, we're 10 years old, like we need awareness because with the awareness, we build the trust; and with trust, we build conversion. And so what we see in our markets where we have higher awareness as much as 45% aided awareness in our most mature markets, conversion is 1/3 higher than an immature market.

So awareness really matters. And we have been shifting more and more of our marketing mix to drive brand and creative and really sort of tell the story like why Opendoor, why you start your selling journey here, it's been really successful. And so even though total marketing spend for us has come down the last couple of years on the back of the delays of a call that we've been seeing in the real estate market, we have seen brand awareness being record levels for us. So that strategy has worked really, really well, and we'll continue to invest behind it. So that's top of funnel on awareness.

The other thing is we have seen in our markets year-to-date, 1 in 4 sellers, true sellers, have come to us enter their address. That's great, 1 in 4. So 28% of all sellers who either sold Opendoor or chose to list on the market within 60 days. So high intent, right? That's how we measure it. True sellers have come to us and given their information and engaged with us, not all obviously converted. And that's great. But like why not 1 in 2? Why not all, right? Like we want everyone to start their home journey with us. So awareness...

Michael Ng

Doesn't hurt to get a cash offer, right?

Carrie Wheeler

Doesn't hurt to get a cash offer, you understand exactly where you are, and you can go from there. And so again, building awareness for us drives conversion drives trust. And so that's like one big lever. The other one is partnerships, which we just talked about. So just being everywhere sellers are and making sure we're the de facto, simple certain fast solution from them through the cash offer or through this with Opendoor, like we're actually trialing with one of our largest homebuilder partners now, a list with Opendoor solutions. Like we want to be multiproduct across everything eventually.

And then the last thing I'd say is like just buy box and markets, you ask me like, where are you today? We have 4x or buy box in the last, I guess, 5 years now as of 2019. So today, based on what we have in our models, we can comfortably underwrite $650 billion of serviceable addressable market against like a $1.6 trillion real estate market. So we underwrite about 40% of it. So that's grown a lot of 4x, and we will continue to like look at where it makes sense to add more buy box. It could be more miscodes, it could be price point. It could be segments of the market like we don't do condos and market X like we'll continue to kind of build it.

But certainly today, we're not constrained by the buy box we can underwrite. We've got lots of room. And 50 markets today that hasn't been a focus for us as of late. Over time, we want to be in most markets, if not all. But 50 and over time, that can expand as well.

Michael Ng

Great. And just as a follow-up to that. Yes, expanding to most markets over time. $650 billion of the $1.6 trillion opportunity. What do you look at in terms of characteristics of a market that makes it attractive to expand into or to include in your buy box over time?

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. I mean, number one is how do our models respond to that market? And can we underwrite with a reasonable band of accuracy. And so we take a lot of time to back test and make sure we have the right data make sure you understand the nuances of that market. Every market has got their own idiosyncrasies. So we want to spend some time there. And when we have opened markets historically, we have gone I'd say carefully. So we open it and we spend a little bit of time buying some homes and seeing them go all the way from acquisition through to resale before we actually kind of turn on a lot of marketing and turn on a lot of inventory spend.

So it's I think one of the misperceptions of our business is like it only works in new housing stock. It only works on homogenous. It works great in Phoenix. It's not going to work in... And the reality is we are in all kinds of markets. We're in heavy seasonal markets like Minneapolis, like no 1 roof in the winter, like how do you do physical assessments. We have figured that out over time. We are in all sorts of price points. We're in different home types. And so it really does resonate.

What we care about more is that we want to be where we can underwrite with reasonable band of accuracy, and we want to be where most of the transactions are happening. We want to be in that part of the distribution curve, we're like the most volume, the most activity, the most liquid.

Michael Ng

Right. It's more about the data and the volume of the transaction.

Carrie Wheeler

Yes, it's a little bit to do with like -- we do look to make sure that there's enough labor -- trade labor in that market for us to have enough share of wallet with them that we can also renovate and repair efficiently.

Michael Ng

Right. Great. If we could take a step back and maybe just talk about the U.S. housing market at large. Can you talk a little bit about Opendoor's outlook for the market this year and into next. And I think if you look at MBA data, they're looking for 4.2 million U.S. existing homes this year going to 4.4 million next. Obviously, a long ways from the peak or the recent peak that we saw in 2021 with 6.1 million. But what's Opendoor's outlook? And how does that inform your strategy?

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. Well, the market has certainly been a headwind for the last couple of years. We have not been swimming with the fishes as they say. On the seller side, sellers are locked into their current mortgage rates, by and large, and then they're low to give that up. So there is a real paralysis in the seller community to kind of list on the market, and then you've got buyers who have sincere affordability challenges. So the market has been pretty frozen and you referenced the 4 million-ish kind of annual transaction. typically over the last 30 years, on average, 5 million people a year have moved.

So if you think back the last couple of years, you've got 2 million people who are -- like life is still happening, right? You're still moving, you're having kids, you're changing jobs, like all those things are still happening and yet you are stuck. So the market is sort of in the state of being frozen. One of the things we talked about in Q2 is that the market for us has actually become softer in the back half of this year, more so than we would have expected. I mean the 1 thing we can count on the housing market is that seasonality shows up every year because that's just consumer behavior, right? I want to move in the first half of the year. I want to get kind of set and get back to school and like I'm less inclined to move in the back half of the year. That's how transactions flow.

But what we saw is seasonality showed up early this year, and it was, I'd say, more pronounced like it rolled over so that things were a little bit more negative than we would have seen. We look at 2 things. We look at the rate at which homes are going into contract. We call that clearance. And clearance is actually 30% slower than it was last year even. So the like homes are not transacting quickly. They're staying on the market for much longer.

And as many as 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 sellers are delisting. That is a decade year high for at least the time period we've been in the market. So people are talking about that a lot, but delistings is a real phenomenon right now that is like literally off the historical charts. People are not finding their prices and they are leaving the market. And so there's this shadow book of inventory that I think is really weighing on transaction velocity and pricing.

And then the back half of the year, we expect always to be soft from a pricing standpoint, I'd say it's softer than we would have expected. And we have responded by widening our spreads being more conservative on our pricing effectively. And that's really our expectation in the back half of this year, softer, slower and smaller for us than we otherwise would have forecasted.

Michael Ng

Right. That's really interesting. And could you just talk about like when you began to observe these trends of like lower clearance rates, higher rates of delisting. What do you think that it all means for home price appreciation? And maybe the answer is just more volatility, which is why there's the widening spread but...

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. So first of all, when we talk about home prices, we really talk about month-to-month in the world tends to talk about year-over-year. We're in the month and month business, right? We're thinking about our exposure over a 4-, 5-, 6-month period. And as I said, in the back half of the year, home prices are always soft. They're flat, 0 or they're modestly negative. They're a little bit more negative than that right now.

And that is the expectation we're managing against right now for the balance of the year really because we want to manage appropriately for risk first and manage for our balance sheet. The good news is we can reset our expectations every week. We reassess where we are giving offers, how we are managing our spreads, how we are meeting marketing. So we're watching clearance for watching velocity. We're watching on price trends. And if and when they change, we can respond to that. That's our business model.

Michael Ng

Yes. How are you thinking about responding to interest rate changes over the remainder of the year and into next, right? I think the expectation is that we'll get 3 25 basis points cuts in year-end?

Carrie Wheeler

Listen, we are all hoping for rate relief and reduction. I think it feels like now the probability of that happening is higher than it's been certainly in the last couple of years. We're not necessarily in the macroeconomic business. I can't tell you for certain like what will that mean, but the hope is that it will unlock some sellers who have been frozen and like take the edge off some of the affordability pressure. And we are set up very well to respond to that in the first part of next year.

Michael Ng

That's great. Putting it all together and kind of translating it back to the model, Opendoor has a target 5% to 7% contribution margin for this year and I think over the long term as well. Maybe you can just start and talk about the components, the unit economics that get you to that 5% to 7%, and your confidence and that being the right range for the long term.

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. We actually, 2 years ago, we're operating more like 4% to 6%, and we did 2 things. One is we took some costs out. And we also recognized it was healthier for us to manage to a higher margin target, hence the 5% to 7%. We give ourselves a range annually because quarter-to-quarter, just given seasonality, there is some variation. We want to be able to manage to that, hence, the 5% to 7%.

To your question, is that the right range? We think it is for now. Over time, we like to marry that with other ancillaries and increase the margin target. But like for the core business today, 5% to 7% is what we're managing against. And you ask like what goes into that. That is really like at a unit level, we bought it for here. We sold it for here, lesser holding costs, less transaction cost. What does that mean for overall margin? And we want to be within that 5% to 7% on a long-term annual basis.

Michael Ng

Great. Opendoor has done a really good job of managing OpEx. Last quarter, I think you guys drove $7 million in OpEx savings quarter-on-quarter through being more efficient with marketing and certainly some reduced hiring. Could you just expand a little bit more on your cost management efforts. How much more OpEx could we pull out of the operating model, if we need to, right, in response to housing?

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. No. I mean, I'd say the path to profitability has a lot to do with how we manage our cost structure. We've been very focused on how do we deliver a more efficient cost structure over the last 2 years. And kudos to our team, like we've taken out on the total OpEx basis. I mean, there's some marketing spend in there, and that can go up and go down. But like about 50% reduction in OpEx peak from 2022 to where we are today.

And certainly, given where our volumes are trending today, we need to do more and we can do more. So we're continuing to look at our cost structure to be more efficient. You're right, we're turning around $100 million a quarter. We actually took $35 million out annually, I announced that last quarter through -- by spinning out one of the businesses that we had incubated called Mainstay. So that was another benefit on the cost side in addition to the $7 million you referenced.

And so we'll get that annualized benefit back half of the year, but something we're very focused on because the whole company is focused on, we need to be at a place where we are adjusted net income positive. That for us is basically operating free cash flow, and we know that. And so at a time where volumes continue to be under pressure in this environment, we have to resize our cost structure to fit that.

Michael Ng

Great. You mentioned Mainstay. I would love to learn a little bit more about that. What was the strategic rationale for spinning off Mainstay? Why is now the right time? And for those that may not be aware, could you just talk about what Mainstay is?

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. So for us, Mainstay is a market intelligence and data platform that really helps service the single-family rental REIT market. It was a natural extension of what we do well today, which is we were buying and selling homes with consumers, and we're also doing it for the REITs. And we could sell them some of our homes, and sometimes we are buyer of homes, and we were helping them manage in that way. And we've realized like we have, I would argue, probably more home data than anyone else in the country. We collect a lot from home sellers.

We also walk in a lot of homes. So like many multiples more of what we actually acquire, we actually get to see, and we've been collecting that data and structure wait for 10 years. We realized there was a way to extend that data advantage and allow REITs to have some access in the right way to that information. And so something we've been incubating for the last couple of years they were of a size, scale and like product market fit, where we had outside interest from investors.

And I think it was sort of time to send Mainstay on its way, which is a good thing. We retain a significant chunk of the business. And so we'll continue to hopefully enjoy its upside in value creation over time. But for us, it allows us to really focus right now to 100% on the consumer business, simplify our cost structure, it just made sense to do it right now.

Michael Ng

Great. That's really helpful. Just before we move on from OpEx, I just want to touch on marketing again. You talked about having more of a targeted model. Could you just elaborate a little bit more on like how you're going to toggle that marketing lever once the housing market begins to recover. Like are these savings that we'll see in the bottom line, and it will be durable? Will you lean more heavily into marketing as the housing market goes up because of the top-of-funnel opportunity? What's the right way to think about it?

Carrie Wheeler

We want to be dynamic in how we think about our marketing investments. At one level, we want them to be durable, right, because we're in the awareness growing business, and we want to make sure that we're continuing to invest in that. If you think about when customers come to us, not everyone says, yes, right? Initially, they take a first offer and then they just decide not to transact. That's fine. They convert over months or years after that. So 75% our volume today is coming from customers who previously asked for an offer didn't convert on the first time, but converted on a subsequent refresh, they might get 50 refreshes. That's fine. 

So we will continue to invest in that marketing funnel and make sure that we are reengaging and like have a really robust marketing life cycle because we have this incredible base of customers we retain and engage with over time. So marketing does go up and down for us at some level, though, with spreads. So when our spreads are really high and we're taking in less volume, some of that spend gets less efficient.

There's a baseline level that we're going to maintain. But we will toggle at the level like depending on where we are in the spread cycle, the amount of investment we have. But long term, like building the brand and building consumer awareness is really important to us. So assuming as we're growing volumes, we should expect to grow marketing dollars.

Michael Ng

Right. And having people come to Opendoor as the first destination certainly helps to give them some degree of price discovery, right? There's no reason why their first stop shouldn't be Opendoor, at least to establish a floor if nothing else on what they can get for selling a home.

Carrie Wheeler

And the other part of marketing is it's not all span, right? So having our partnership channels beat for us is a really important extension of our marketing power.

Michael Ng

Do you feel like you have full coverage in terms of your partner brokerages in each of the markets that you operate in to absolutely...

Carrie Wheeler

No. There's lots more to go get. I mean like we're in 90 homebuilders. So we're many, but not all. So there are more to do on the homebuilder side. We can certainly deepen our share with the homebuilders. If you think about what has to happen with homebuilders is not only is that top-to-top relationship important, but the home sale associate selling a new built home has to actually understand the proposition of Opendoor. And so we need to kind of a community by community for many of the homebuilders. So there is more to get.

There are thousands of agents out there. 2 years ago, agents would have said Opendoor's trying to like take away my job. No, no, we're trying to make your job easier, like come to a listing appointment, have an Opendoor offer in hand, you can still list a traditional way, if that's what your customer wants to do. But the return on time for that agent is really high. If that furnishes the customers' needs, and that's what they want. That's a really easy transaction.

And by the way, there's lots of things we can do for agents. We have things that are out of buy box, we can furnish them. We've got listings we can give them. So like it's a very symbiotic relationship. It's important to us. And there's thousands of them to go get over time. I hope my partnerships team is listening to this. And then online real estate, I mean, that's relatively smaller universe of folks, but I think there's more to be done there over time for us, too. And there are other channels. There's lenders, there's other folks that we can be in it over time.

Michael Ng

Great. I wanted to ask you about what you think the implications of the NAR settlement are. Obviously, buyer brokerage commissions are no longer required. I think it's more clear that they're negotiable. Certainly feels like that should be a good thing as it relates to selling expenses on Opendoor side. At the same time, I wonder how much of the brokerage commission rate dictates the service fee, so to speak. I don't know if that will be true.

Carrie Wheeler

Yes. For us, it's a cost, right, to your point, it's a meaningful cost. We talked about the 5% to 7% contribution margin target. Within there is an assumption that I am paying a buyer's agent for every home I'm selling because everyone is coming with an agent in tow, fine. And let's just say that's 2.5 points of our cost structure, like very meaningful. So our expectation is this NAR settlement where there's been a bifurcation of seller, you pay for your agent; buyer, you negotiate separately and pay for your agent.

That will bring the overall buyer broker commission down over time. And we said that -- we saw from April to August 10, 15 basis points of compression on the commission side. For us, it's a cost and probably ultimately is a pass-through. So if I have -- that 2.5 points becomes -- to make up a number, it becomes one, that's fine. I mean spreads has come down. My margin has an impact but the overall cost of the transaction for the consumer goes down, version gets better, like it's a win-win, like it's -- and it's good for the consumer it's good for us.

We're totally aligned with the consumer, and there should be less friction and less cost in the transaction over time, and that's a good thing. Right now, there's a whole lot of fusion in the market on the part of agents and understandably so this is totally upended the world for how they get compensated, the kinds of conversations we need to have, and we're super sensitive to that. We have indicated like if you're an agent, you come to us with the best offer, like, of course, we're going to cover that agent's compensation. But right now, there's a lot of swirl in the market. It's going to take a while for us see where this all settles.

Michael Ng

Yes. And I know you gave the hypothetical 2.5 to 1.0. I mean that's obviously...

Carrie Wheeler

I don't know. It'll be a lot of compression but I do think as buyers increasingly become educated about what they are paying their agent. There is no free lunch here. There has been this understanding that's like, I didn't pay for my buyer's agent. It came out of the seller's pocket. I think that's changing. Like there's a lot of education that's happening, like open up the paper, right? You can't help it read about this almost every day. It's been very topical for consumers, and it will start, I think, to change the narrative. And I'm sure there will be splintering of like how a buyer's agent might get compensated maybe gets paid for tours.

Definitely, you might get paid for this. Like we'll see. We will follow the market on this. We have lots of homes to sell. People use agents typically to buy homes, and that's fine. But by the way, we have built the only direct e-commerce platform to buy a home in the country. So if you are a buyer who doesn't feel that they need that agent and you want to come to us and buy an Opendoor home. Like that 2.5% go back in your pocket. We're not going to charge you for it because we're not paying for it.

And so we think there's long-term huge strategic value, having built the only integrated direct transaction platform for real estate in this country to buy your home.

Michael Ng

Yes. I want to leave a few minutes for audience questions, but before I do, maybe I'll sneak another one in. Could you talk a little bit about the role of, I guess, institutional investors play a role in like whether that be like SFRs or fix and flip or anything like that? Is there a market opportunity or more meaningful market opportunity to lean more into those types of things where Opendoor's top of funnel, but you're really just serving as a marketplace to a group of institutional buyers on the other side.

Carrie Wheeler

It's been less of a focus as of late. And as mostly because like the SFR folks have really pulled out of the market, right? And they are not very acquisitive right now. They're doing some build or rent with own builders and size. But in terms of like accessing the MLS and buying homes, like we're really good at helping them with that, like Mainstay did a lot of that, and we're happy to help them do it still today. like we have the transaction platform to be able to do that in scale and certainly, we can leverage that, and we're happy to sell them our homes.

But today, they're just not in that market given where the cost of capital is. We'll see if that changes.

Michael Ng

Great. I want to see if there are any questions from the audience. All right. Well, I'll ask a closing question. As you look out over the next 5 years, what are some of the things that you're most excited about for Opendoor as a company? Which products or initiatives that are in place today will we look back and say like, "Oh, that was the killer product or the killer initiative."

Carrie Wheeler

I mean, I think we look -- the goal is when we look back 5 years from now, like the aha that went on when we bought our groceries online for the first time, we call an Uber, we booked a flight online, we're like God, that was so easy like how do I ever do like packing up the phone or like going in there and something like, you should be able to sell your home online. Like that's really what we want to do. Like how do we bring the power of technology to the real estate market and allow home sellers to transact with the same amount of convenience and certainty these, like it should be magical, right?

This is like a really important transaction. It shouldn't be so hard. And so our mission really, we talk about we are powering Life's progress like one move at a time, and we have a lot of conviction that real estate is going to move online as results because people are very much wed now to like the ease of being able to transact online. And no reason restate can't go there. So the things we're excited about is all the things I talked about.

I mean we have this incredible hook in this cash offer product, sell your home online in minutes that people love, super high converting 80-plus Net Promoter Score, and we want to put it in front of all people and make sure it's top of mind when you start your own selling journey. And we have lots of other capabilities, whether it's the best home valuation data, whether it's the integrated transaction platform we built, we want to build other ancillaries around that core offering over time.

So you can list your product with us -- list your home with us. There are other flavors of that we can do over time and certainly want to be profitable, Michael, like we're very focused on continuing to address our cost structure and like we size it for the reality of where the market is today and where our volumes are. Because we know that when the market does come back and a little more neutral, maybe a little more positive, we want to be in a place where we can take full advantage of.

Michael Ng

That's an excellent place to wrap it up. It's been such a privilege to have you at our conference and have you on stage. Thank you so much, Carrie. I appreciate it.

Carrie Wheeler

Thanks, Michael. I appreciate it.